The Eastern Edge - Latest comments on State of the Disunion

Rissa_Ichigo [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

Rissa_Ichigo [Visitor] — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:42:21 +0000

Wow! I found this through ask.com because I am doing a Compare-Contrast essay for College Prep English! You made some great points! And even though I am a HUGE manga fan, I also love American comics such as the Runaways and Darkhorse's Buffy the Vampire Slayer! lol Interesting to hear what people have to say on the other side of the railroad tracks!

Jennifer [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

Jennifer [Visitor] — Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:56:55 +0000

You're welcome!

Also, I was especially surprised when I found that out about DATS because the group scanlates Bartender, a good seinen manga (I like Domu, Monster, Planetes, and Solanin too) and chapter 5 of volume 1 is particularly decent (it's got pro-both-women-and-men feminism, treats the little girl character as a child instead of a sex object, and is even explicitly cool with people who don't drink alcohol ;) ). I saw that policy when I was exploring the site looking for the latest chapter.

Jennifer [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

Jennifer [Visitor] — Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:47:44 +0000

Sorry about not realizing what turning off Auto-BR would do to the formatting of my comment. There should be blank lines above

OTOH, "manga" is just...

As for speaking English...

That reminds me of...

"Speaking of use and...

"...Respect

"Respect is a core ideal...

Maybe the DATS moderators...

gottsuiiyan [Member] in response to: State of the Disunion

gottsuiiyan [Member] — Tue, 10 Mar 2009 01:42:45 +0000

Jennifer,

THANK YOU!

And DATS the topic of my next post!

Jennifer [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

Jennifer [Visitor] — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 22:13:47 +0000

"I think of 'manga' as a style of comics out of Japan. Just like you don't have to be American to draw Superman, you don't have to be Japanese to draw Japanese style comics either." OTOH, "manga" is just Japanese for "comics" (including Superman) the way "manhwa" is just Korean for "comics" (including the ones sold by Tokyopop), "manhua" is just Mandarin for "comics," and "spaghetti" is just Italian for "noodles." As for speaking English, if someone doesn't want to call Youn In-Wan's comics "manga" and someone else does want to, both ways are OK. :) Same as if someone doesn't want to call lo mein "spaghetti" and someone else does want to. :) "Speaking of use and abuse of foreign terms, I see tons of things written about 'yaoi' 'lolicon' and 'hentai' comics lately. But it’s funny… You know, I never see anyone write anything in straight-up English about those things. "I wonder why that is? Hmmm…" That reminds me of this forum rule on DATS: http://forums.dats.us/showthread.php?t=3036 "...Respect "Respect is a core ideal throughout humanity, and DATS wishes to encourage that. Therefore, any racial, sexual, or similar slurs will not be tolerated. Yes, one may be opinionated about one of these, but that does not entitle one the option of expressing those feelings in hurtful terms. "This section includes 'bashing' of certain groups that may not follow 'mainstream' culture, such as 'furries,' 'lolicons,' 'shotacons,' or similar..." Maybe the DATS moderators think "...Respect is a core ideal throughout humanity, and DATS wishes to encourage that. Therefore, any racial, sexual, or similar slurs will not be tolerated...This section includes 'bashing' of certain groups that may not follow 'mainstream' culture, such as 'furries,' 'disrespecting little girls enough to enjoy seeing them get fucked,' 'disrespecting little boys enough to enjoy seeing them get fucked,' or similar..." didn't have the same ring to it?

gottsuiiyan [Member] in response to: State of the Disunion

gottsuiiyan [Member] — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 19:35:51 +0000

Preston,

Yeah, high school is like that, eh? haha. Everything gets labeled and categorized. But it really sucks when you get out into the "adult" world and it's exactly the same. There's a lot of snobbery in comics but, like I said, at least you get all sides in the same venues, like NYCC. North America still has more open minds overall, which is one of the reasons that Japanese comics are making it, I think..

Michelle,

Thanks for expressing your thoughts. You really got me thinking about this.
Now allow me to respond:

My intention isn't to add to bad feelings, but I was venting some of mine. I agree with you completely that it is both sides, but you mentioned the superior attitude of some blogs toward manga pissing you off to the point that you stopped reading blogs, right? Well, I was reacting to the same type of superior attitude in favor of manga and against American comics. I live in Japan so it's always the same thing over and over about how Japanese comics and animation are taking over the world to fill some perceived cultural void.

I have never said that Japanese and American comics are the same, but they are different styles of the same medium. It has nothing to do with me liking it or not, because they are not different beasts. They are different breeds of the same beast.

The graphics and words do not have different purposes. I also read both and I read both languages, but I don't need to adjust my mind frame because ultimately the purpose is to tell a story, isn't it? Comics are a medium of storytelling through words and sequential art. So what's the big difference? I also don't know what you mean by artists can't switch, because it's not like being left-handed or right-handed. What do you mean by that? Unless you are drawing cookie-cutter formula stuff, comics are art, and each comic is as unique as the individual artist who creates it.

Just like different people express their ideas and emotions differently, so do different cultures and that is where the differences between Japanese and American comics are. For example FX. Japanese use a lot of onomatopoeia in their speech, so naturally those will show up in their comics. That's just one example, but it really is that simple to me. It can be fascinating to study that type of thing, but in the end people are people and that goes for their comics, too.
Unless you think that Japanese people have special relationships that other humans don't have, or have thoughts and emotions unique to only them, how can their words and pictures have special purpose that American ones don't? Sure they may have different perspectives that can be very interesting. There are differences in how ideas and emotions are expressed between Japan and America, but that doesn't change the medium they are expressed in or the purpose.

Of course people prefer different styles. I am not questioning that. But would you call a Japanese movie, however different it may be, anything other than a movie? Japanese cars are very different from American ones, but they still serve the same purpose, don't they?
You might roll your eyes at that example, but the fact is that comics are comics.

Talking up comics you like is fine, but there's no reason to rip on other styles and pretend that they aren't even the same thing when they clearly are. That’s what I’m trying to say. I respect where you are coming from, but I just don’t see Japanese comics as being a special medium of its own.

Sorry if I left bad feelings from where you stand, but that’s how I feel.

Michelle [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

Michelle [Visitor] — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 17:41:29 +0000

You seem to be presenting only one side of the story here. The manga readers reactions are returned equally by the average American comic readers reactions to manga. I've stopped reading most comic blogs because I hate their superior attitude toward manga, as if it has nothing to offer but tentacle porn and Naruto. Even ICv2 writes with a kind of subtle glee whenever mentioning any kind of failure in in the manga market. They love to stress the negatives and grudgingly admit the positives.

Whether you like it or not, manga and American comics are two very different beasts. The graphics and words are used to different purposes in them, and it can be difficult to switch when used to the other. I know; I read both. I have to completely switch my mind frame when moving between the two (it's why most comic artists *can't* successfully switch to the other style), and it can literally be a headache.

And so it's not surprising that most people prefer one style over the other, and try to talk up their side and talk down the other. But it's both sides doing this, and not just the superhero nuts on the American comic side. It's not likely to end any time soon either, especially with posts such as the above which IMO is really just adding to the bad feelings separating both sides by blaming most of it on one.

Preston [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

Preston [Visitor] — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 16:52:35 +0000

This is almosty EXACTLY how it was in high school for me a few years ago. I was the only one my age who was into "American comics" and of course I was also into manga because a good read is a good read, right? But almost all the little anime/manga fans always seemed to try and take a chance to rip on comics. "Ew, spandex", "American comics are so unoriginal that they have to use the same characters", etc. It's like people have to sub-divide everything, out of a sense of snobbery or whatever and it's kind of disgusting really.

gottsuiiyan [Member] in response to: State of the Disunion

gottsuiiyan [Member] — Fri, 06 Mar 2009 07:00:24 +0000

Grant G.

I just finished reading the post you linked for me and feel like I just looked at my blogosphere reflection. Actually, you came first so maybe I'm your reflection, eh? haha.
Anyway, I enjoyed it. Thanks!

I liked some of the examples you gave that I didn't, too, like all the successful movies that people don't even know are based on – gasp - American comics that aren’t about Superheroes! Of course, we also have movie adaptations of American hero comics that are so lame they gross a billion dollars worldwide!!

Speaking of use and abuse of foreign terms, I see tons of things written about “yaoi” “lolicon” and “hentai” comics lately. But it’s funny… You know, I never see anyone write anything in straight-up English about those things.

I wonder why that is? Hmmm…

Cheers.

Grant G. [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

Grant G. [Visitor] — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:06:33 +0000

Very well said. This is something I wrote about a few years ago (http://hipsterdad.livejournal.com/139339.html), but of course very little has changed. I have the first volume of Pluto here on my desk and look forward to reading it at lunch. I believe that the word "digest" describes its compiled format better than "wideban."

I think the best thing readers can do is to simply quit calling comics that happen to come from Japan by any other name than "comics." The nationality of the creator, or the format in which their work is reproduced, shouldn't force new words into the discussion when we already have words that describe them.

gottsuiiyan [Member] in response to: State of the Disunion

gottsuiiyan [Member] — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 01:44:33 +0000

Jura,

Cool. Then you've only seen the positive. That's great and I hope it stays that way for you. Unfortunately, being in Japan can magnify a lot of negativity. A lot of the extreme fans who love Japan and think they have some special, deeper understanding of manga's "uniqueness" do a lot of their talking over here and/or Japanese media will focus on them.

On the flip side, everyone know how obnoxious the superhero fanboys can be, right? The "otaku" are exactly the same and it's silly. That's all I'm trying to say.

Cheers

gottsuiiyan [Member] in response to: State of the Disunion

gottsuiiyan [Member] — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 01:36:56 +0000

Laurie,

Don't listen to that noise.
I get upset at marketers who try and pass things off as "manga" or "Japanese" when they clearly are not to make a buck, but if you're an artist who is inspired by Japanese style that's cool.
Takeshi Miyazawa (of "Spiderman Loves Mary Jane" & "Runaways" fame) has a Japanese influenced style. He's Canadian, but he told me that he grew up reading Japanese comics like Doraemon, so his style developed naturally. I like his style.
There's a link to his site on my sidebar. Check him out.

I think of "manga" as a style of comics out of Japan. Just like you don't have to be American to draw Superman, you don't have to be Japanese to draw Japanese style comics either.
Art doesn't have a race because if it did then manga wouldn't exsist. "The Godfather" Tezuka Osamu modeled his stuff after Disney, so there you go!

I disagree with the talk that manga originated from woodblock prints or painted scrolls. That's academia trying to make "manga" seem like some mysterious skill ingrained in the Japanese DNA. That kind of search for proof of uniqueness happens in Japan a lot, and the valitity of much of the research is questionable at best. Unless you also want to argue that Jack Kirby can be traced back to renaissance art, I think it's nonsense.

If someone wants to play the race card on you, throw it back in their face! It's B.S.!
That's why I avoid using the term "manga", because stigma's like the one you mentioned end up getting attached to it by foreigners who adopt the term.
Use of the term "manga" may be debatable, but no race or culture can claim an exclusive on style.
Call everything simply "comics" and a lot of that crap goes away, I think.

Anway, your comment kind of helped me clear my thoughts on where I stand too. In fact I think I might make a fulll blog post about this.

Thanks!

gottsuiiyan [Member] in response to: State of the Disunion

gottsuiiyan [Member] — Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:59:22 +0000

Santi,

Thanks. I don't stick to any company or genre with any kind of entertainment. The creators generally work for who they want on the projects they want, so why should fans worry about it?
Everyone has preferences - thaT's cool - but I just can't stand the negative stuff anymore.

Maybe I'm getting old and soft. lol.

Jura [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

Jura [Visitor] — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 20:26:54 +0000

I haven't seen much of any bashing, dividing, or conquering. Can't say that I can relate to this.

laurie [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

laurie [Visitor] — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:04:59 +0000

I'm still fighting that stigma that only japanese (some times they accept other asians) can draw 'manga'

I'm not imitating to be a faker, I just imitate because thats what I like.

Santi [Visitor] in response to: State of the Disunion

Santi [Visitor] — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:11:20 +0000

Hey man!

I can't agree more, everyone should read whatever it is they want to read and stop talking rubish about other cultures comics...

I read DC, Marvel, Vertigo, Shonen/Shoujo/Seinen any type of manga i like also Manwha (Veritas rulz! haha) and argentinian comics too (my nation comics)
I hate when people are narrow minded...

What's that about the manga industry going down when naruto finishes, so what people only buy jump to read one comic they dont care about the others and there isnt only one manga magazine either so it's all just shitty stuff from self-proclaimed otakus that don't know anything about Japan...

great as always, till next post

-Santi-

PS: Stop looking for "mistakes" and you'll like Heroes haha