Actually, I think "Frank Miller Recognition Day" may be more appropriate, but anyway...
First of all, to everyone who has commented on my post yesterday so far,
thanks for the feedback. It's very much appreciated! My intention was to start talk, and the power of a Robot6 via MangaBlog link (to the tune of over 1600 views of the post in less than 20hrs) has sparked some.
Thank you all!
In case there is doubt as to my intentions, the reason I wrote that post is not because I care about what happens to Nick Simmons, or because I have anything against Battle Angel , Yukito Kishiro, or any other Japanese comic or artist. I do not wish to compare how much was or wasn't copied or traced, who is more guilty, or what the consequences for 'tributes’ that cross the line should be. My intention was to get this out there, plain and simply because I am a Frank Miller fan.
People went absolutely nuclear over a relatively obscure comic in order to defend Bleach and the other comics that were copied. Obviously a lot of people care about Bleach et all that have been, uh, ‘paid tribute to’ by Nick Simmons. That’s great. But who’s standing up for the artists outside Japan that get ‘paid tribute to’ without their knowledge in Japan?
I've never heard anyone stand up for Frank Miller in what appears a very similar case that's been around a very long time.
My big problem with this is that unlike Battle Angel, Incarnate never was or ever will be in any danger of being made into a Hollywood movie that could be worth billions! For that matter, it’s in no danger of being made into any kind of movie, cartoon, book, coffee mug, or bootleg t-shirt design that would make anyone any money at all!
Over the last decade or so it's become cool to be influenced by Japanese style. Unfortunately, it also appears to have become cool to make fun of Frank Miller. This is despite the fact that long before the manga/anime boom he was one of the first to incorporate Japanese style into the mainstream and promote Japanese work such as Lone Wolf and Cub. It’s become cool to suggest that Frank Miller has gone off the deep end. That he’s become a parody of himself. That he is done.
Meanwhile, I also see updates every so often on Battle Angel movie development and I just can’t help but wonder why, even though Battle Angel has become so high profile, no one seems to know or care about Frank Miller.
I realize that even 5 years ago the internet didn't have the reach it does now, but was 1999 (the date on the post I cited that put up the images) really that long ago, or is it just that uncool to stick up for Frank Miller? Even if you think Elektra Lives Again is not one of Miller's more famous, or even best work; even if you think it can't be compared to Bleach because it was a lifetime ago, that doesn't f*cking matter because the James Cameron movie is in development RIGHT NOW and there will be nothing old or obscure about it. At the very same time as the Bleach community was up in arms and urging fans to write to the publishers to bust Incarnate – again, a comic that isn’t going to make anyone rich - Battle Angel rolls along in movie development without so much as a peep about Frank Miller - ever! The images I found appear to have been up for at least 10 years. I've heard little about it and no one seems the slightest bit upset. I've read many reviews of Battle Angel comics that talk about similarities and the obvious Frank Miller influence in Kishiro's art, and the pics I’m reposting here are nothing new. So, where have all the Frank Miller fans gone? Was All-Star Batman and Robin really that bad!? Doesn’t a line-up of stunningly bold and original work over an industry revolutionizing 30 plus year career at least warrant a tiny spark of interest in the fact that work that include elements taken from him is about to become a blockbuster franchise!?
Look, maybe I’m wrong about all this. Maybe if asked Frank Miller would come out and say, "I know he copied those panels and I'm cool with it." Maybe he just wouldn't give a shit. Or, maybe Yukito Kishiro would say, "I showed my work to Frank and he said it was cool." I doubt it, but that would be great, wouldn't it? My only question then would be, “Why the hell didn't you say so!?"
Hell, maybe Kishiro did 'borrow' a couple parts but then felt really guilty and never did it again.
If something like that’s the case I will shut the f*ck up, go out and buy every issue of Battle Angel Alita avalibale (new, not used!) and never blog another word about this.
But is that that case? Is the fact that so little has been said before mean that I'm wrong and this is all a big misunderstanding on my part? Or could it be that there are so few people that have read Elektra Lives Again that no one noticed even after all these years?!
For some reason Elektra Lives Again seems to be one of Miller's more obscure and least often mentioned works. Personally I think it's one of his best - at least it's one of my favorites – and it pissed me off to think that it might have been ripped off. If it's relatively obscure in North America, imagine how many average comic readers in Japan might have heard of it? How many average Japanese do you think have even heard of Frank Miller?
Consequences for plagiarism in Japan are tough, as they should be. I'm not arguing that. So when I suggest a double standard I am not referring to publishers or the industry in general. I am referring to the fans. The fans in Japan just don't know, but what about the fans in America? Is Frank Miller that unknown or uninteresting to 'manga' fans? that can't be the case, can it? The fans are absolutely right in defending Bleach. I would too. But why is so much time and effort being put toward ruining a nobody, while no one wants to go to bat for Frank Miller? If it's just that people didn't know, well now you know! So now what? Does this get looked into a little further, or swept under the rug?
I'm saying this simply because I don't know if I can endure anymore geekgasms over the possibility of a James Cameron Battle Angel movie, which I admit will probably be really f*cking cool, without at least bringing this topic up for debate.
Like I said, maybe I've got this all wrong. Maybe I’m making a big deal about nothing. But maybe it goes further than only the image I posted yesterday and this other one that I linked to:
If Yukito Kishiro's intentions were nothing more than a tribute to a creator he admires – and I honestly hope that’s all it is - then why not let it out in the open? Let’s get Kishiro himself to talk about it. Maybe some of that talk will even permeate back to Japan and fans over there will discover Frank Miller too, not to mention the younger generations everywhere that will watch the Battle Angel but don't know anything about Frank Miller. Better yet, do the ultimate homage and ask him to be involved in the movie development. He does movies too now, ya know!
Wouldn't anyone want the honor of having the person who inspired their art personally make the movie based on it?
Hey, it's just a thought…
So how about it, Kishiro?
If you're worried about the language barrier, then put it in writing! I will happily volunteer my time to translate your message to Frank Miller into English and return it to you for personal delivery. Alternately, I can arrange to have a bilingual native Japanese translate your words and I will simply proof read it!
(is if that'll happen...)
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I completely understand the people who love Bleach, etc., and want to protect it. Well, I grew up loving Frank Miller’s work. My intention is not to compare this case with the Nick Simmons case, because Battle Angel is obviously original work. The creator is a good artist and has created an extremely popular comic, and that just wouldn't have happened if he wasn't skilled. However, I do think he had more than a little help once in a while. I'm not saying that's wrong necessarily either, but does the amount of copied material matter? Maybe it does. Maybe most people think it's okay if it's only once or twice in a much larger work. Maybe most people see it as a tribute. But I felt compelled to at least bring up the possibility that some credit is not being given where it is obviously due. Because I'm a Frank Miller fan.
To say I’m protecting Frank Miller might be a bit of a stretch. But I definitely would like to see him get some long overdue recognition for his contribution to a comic that is probably going to become James Cameron’s next mega hit.
Frank Miller is a legend and he deserves at least that, doesn't he!?
UPDATE: Please have a look at the comments here and on yesterdays post.
It looks like I've gotten what I wanted (or at least all I can) out of this.Thanks to everyone who took the time to comment!
13 comments
But if this is something you seriously want to pursue, I think I can one-up you on this. Some claimed that Ronin had a swipe/homage to Lone Wolf and Cub. Of course, just as Kishiro is a fan of Miller, Miller has long been a self-proclaimed fan of LWaC, so much so that he drew the covers for the first American edition.
I've got Ronin, can you tell me where the swipe/homage image is?
I know he drew the covers for the first American edition because I own them. He also wrote forwards and I love them. but if he ever has been accused of tracing, I've love to see what they are talking about.
Sorry, I can't recall the panel (this was over a decade ago, too!), but the irony of it was that another mainstream comic swiped the panel from Ronin, which others then pointed out was swiped from Lone Wolf and Cub. That's what made it memorable... it was a swipe of a swipe. Now, I'm using the term swipe, because I can't remember whether the final consensus was that it was a copy, a trace, or an homage. I'm of the opinion that Frank Miller's love of the series was well known even then, so it's probably an intentional homage, regardless of how the panel was actually produced. But I guess the fact that there was a debate about it, meant there was room for argument, as is the case with Kishiro.
If some established US creator had a one off gag where they make a cameo by a familiar looking Japanese character, I'd laugh. Actually, I have. Adam Warren's Mangaverse Fantastic Four is a riff on Evangelion. A version of Eva unit 2 appeard in both the Mystique mini series as well as an episode of Justice League as a giant Luthor robot. These were minor cameos like the Alita case. Well, Warren's was a full out parody. He also had a Sailor Moon and Tuxedo Mask parody in his Magical Drama Queen Roxy.
Meanwhile, Simmons is creating his first comic and has his main story and characters as thinly veiled knock offs of popular manga. If anything the kid's a new Rob Liefield, but he does a lot more tracing it seems and rips off popular manga characters instead of say Hawkeye or seven Thing and Wolverine knockoffs.
To compare some Japanese artist copying, you'd have to look at that manga artist who got canned for tracing Deathnote panels and having similar character designs.
I would say certainly. If BA is made into a movie, it's NOT because he swiped a couple of panels over a decade ago. I don't see James Cameron seeing nothing but those panels and going "OMG-zuz! I don't know what the hell this is about, but that art is so awesome, I gotsta make a movie about it! The power of this art alone, apart from anything else, is totes why I will make an adaptation." Even filtering out my sarcasm, it's ridiculous right? Now, if you were talking about blatant, consistent plagiarized story content, I'd understand. But this is clearly not the case. In fact, I think it's pretty bizarre you omit the utter importance of Battle Angel as a narrative instead of an art book.
And the suggestion that Frank help with the movie (the entire goddamn movie) because Kishiro swiped some art? If you can't see the total absurdity of that, there's no point arguing any further.
Let's say Incarnate was popular and was about to be made into a movie. A large chunk of Incarnate is copied material. A movie based on Incarnate would be based on a comic that draws heavily from someone else's material.
You could hardly say the same about a Battle Angel movie. That scene might not even make it into the movie!
Thanks for your comments.
Agreed, about things influencing eachother. No doubt about that. And no doubt that Nick Simmons can't be compared to Kishiro.
I did this to see what what the threshold is for what matters and what doesn't. It loks like I have a comparative hair trigger when it comes to being bothered by tracing.
I guess to most people a couple of panels, most likely all or partly traced, 14 years ago seems to be the "doesn't matter threshold"
Thanks for your opinions.
Simon Jones,
I am pretty sure Frank Miller would be 100% intentional homage because he was heavily promoting Lone Wolf and Cub when nobody was knew anything about Japanese comics.
But if you ever do come across a mention of what panel it is etc. and you have a minute, I'd appreciate it if you would point me in the direction of that info.
Thanks.
http://www.gottsu-iiyan.ca/gib/index.php/2010/03/04/case-closed
Thanks, everyone!
Like Bahamut said, it was one small scene out of a 2000 page comic. (Not counting the side stories which were in the oversized omnibuses & filled with conceptual data about the world of Battle Angel, or Gunnm) Would it kill Viz to put together a compilation of all the stuff that wasn’t collected in the main series?
Anyways, getting back on topic, Kishihiro seemed to be a big fan of Frank Miller, even going so far as to create a Sin-City inspired spin-off of his series called Ashen Victor.
(there seems to be something wrong with the SavageCritic site, but I was able to find it by caching my search result)
http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:Q1ctH4RzcWoJ:savagecritic.com/2009/06/old-english-2.html+ashen+victor+frank+miller&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
If Alita said something along the lines of “There’s nothing wrong with you, Desty Nova, that I can’t fix... with my fists!”, then, yes, we would have a clear-cut case of some serious ripping off going on here. Of course, to be fair, considering how Nova’s experiments go beyond the pale of human mangling, he deserves every bit of skull rattling that he can get. If James Cameron ever(?) gets the chance to start production on Battle Angel, he better well start before Christopher Lloyd shuffs off this mortal coil. Given the man’s portrayal of Doc Brown and Judge Doom, it would be an easy feat for him to combine both characters into the mad scientist role.
However, since Japanese comics go more for imagery than verbose text (excluding Shojo mangas where the internal conflict is ALL about reader identification) that probably makes them more potential targets of borrowing pictures wherever they can. They release their stories in huge fat anthologies all competing for attention, and live in the hope the audience won’t notice that in their haste to get the story done, they accidentally drew six fingers on that guy’s hand. After all, who’s going to notice apart from obsessive compulsive fans?
BTW Gottsuiiyan, the image that was stolen from Ronin you're thinking of is probably a Liefeld swipe. (No surprise there)
http://www.heromachine.com/2009/07/10/reason-12c-yet-more-bad-swiping/
Thanks very much for the comments and links.
Wow, that Liefeld one is almost an exact copy! Yikes! LOL.
Someone also just tweeted me about Ashen Victor. I'm going to have a look at that.
I haven't found a copy of the Alita series to have a look at yet, but I'm glad to hear that those ninjas never came back.
Thanks very much!
James Cameron´s Dark Angel is a rip off from Carlos Trillo and Meglia´s Cibersyx. They went to court, but nothing happened... Because in the USA you need tons of money to win a trial like that, and two Argentinian comic book creators can´t fight against almighty Hollywood "genius director" James Cameron.
"James Cameron´s Dark Angel is a rip off from Carlos Trillo and Meglia´s Cibersyx. They went to court, but nothing happened... Because in the USA you need tons of money to win a trial like that, and two Argentinian comic book creators can´t fight against almighty Hollywood "genius director" James Cameron."
And now I want to read Cybersix. I've already read Chicanos by Trillo, and that one is very good. :)
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