gottsuiiyan
03/02/10
03/02/10
Double Standard?
I've been paying about as much attention to comics as can be expected by a hockey mad Canadian leading up to an Olympic gold medal, but even I know about the Incarnate fiasco. It has shown me a lot about fan community behavior and the consequences of plagiarism as it pertains to Japanese comics. Here's the simplified version of two tings I've concluded from all I've seen and read over the last few days.
First, if you're American and you rip-off Japanese comics...
American fans of those Japanese comics will not only expose you, they will rip you and new one and make sure the world knows what a scumbag they think you are. The reaction by fan communities to this kind of plagiarism, which really is a heinous artistic crime, is quick, decisive and brutal. Interestingly many of the pitchfork and torch welding internet hordes also pirate the work they claim to be protecting, but many - I hope the majority - are also genuine fans and supporters who have a right to be upset. Industry people will of course follow with detailed reports, commentary to put things into context, and provide opinion on both the plagiarism itself and on the reaction of the fan communities. It really has stirred some interesting debate, especially when the subject is stealing vs. thieving, or - if you prefer - plagiarism vs. pirating.
But I'm not going to get into it because I have little to add that hasn't been said. If you want to read what people have been saying and writing about all this and some of the more interesting and notorious cases of plagiarism, mangablog is a great place to start.
Does Nick Simmons deserve to be virtually hunted down and beaten to death by the angry cyber mobs? Well, I don't know, but at the very least he does deserve a damn good thrashing, and I think he got it when his publisher immediately pulled his comics.
At the very least I think he deserved that.
Aside from the pirates, who rarely if ever actually pay for their entertainment - after all, pirates complaining is just one type of thief calling out another, ostensibly to protect the source of their own stolen goods and the artists they are also ripping off who supply those goods - it's hard to argue against the anger of genuine fans who are seeing someone steal their favorite things and get paid while doing so, especially when it appears to be blatant tracing.
Hell, I would be angry too and want the thief to pay for their sins, preferably in cold hard cash directly into the pockets of the creator(s) of the work they ripped off!
Which brings me to the second thing I learned about plagiarism and Japanese comics:
From Frank Miller's "Elektra Lives Again", page 25 (1990)
(And one of my all time favorites!)
From Yukito Kishiro's "Battle Angel Alita" Part Six num.1, pag. 24 (1996)
(found via this tweet)
UPDATE (about 2 hours after I first posted this): I just found even more evidence here!!
If you're Japanese and ripping off an American legend such as Frank Miller, not only do you get away with it, if you did it well you might even be in line for a major Hollywood rub and tug by the worldwide king of the box office himself!
Sometimes life will just 'dance, dance all over your face' while arguably undeserving others laugh, laugh all the way to the bank.
Right, Yukito?
22 comments
# Smodfan on 03/03/10 at 00:54
IMHO, You can't really compare what happened nearly 15 years ago with what happened now because if the internet was as an active community as it is today perhaps Yukito Kishiro would have gotten similar treatment as Nick did, we will never know.
Watch CCW 3.27 at http://www.youtube.com/user/comicculturewarrior. Here Jose Melendez shortly talks about how American comic artists swiped from various manga art in the past and got away with it purely because the internet isn't the same place it is today as it was when those swipings occurred.
Watch CCW 3.27 at http://www.youtube.com/user/comicculturewarrior. Here Jose Melendez shortly talks about how American comic artists swiped from various manga art in the past and got away with it purely because the internet isn't the same place it is today as it was when those swipings occurred.
# Simon Jones on 03/03/10 at 01:50
Oh yes, there was a great amount of discussion on this years ago...
Speaking personally, the differences between what is an homage, versus what is just copying or plagiarism, are so subtle and delicate that, as a publisher, I'd prefer not to see any of them at all. Plagiarism is an act committed by the author to his readers, while homage is really only meant to be understood by the artist who perpetrates it, and the artist who is the subject of the homage. It's a hat tip from one professional to another, a private in-joke. Because of this, the homage is also very hard for audiences to judge, since it's not meant for them. It also means that it really only works when both the artist and the subject of tribute have already achieved a certain level of professional standing.
Is Yukito, who is a long time self-professed Frank Miller fan, a plagiarist? Is Nick Simmons a plagiarist? A few questions need to be asked beforehand... is the amount of copying substantial relative to the entire work? Is the copying done to supplement shortcomings in the artist's technical repertoire? How easily would one recognize it as an intentional reference? Certainly, we wouldn't find universal agreement on either of these examples, although I would imagine that Yukito makes more room for argument than Nick Simmons.
Still, I wish nobody did this sort of thing at all.
Speaking personally, the differences between what is an homage, versus what is just copying or plagiarism, are so subtle and delicate that, as a publisher, I'd prefer not to see any of them at all. Plagiarism is an act committed by the author to his readers, while homage is really only meant to be understood by the artist who perpetrates it, and the artist who is the subject of the homage. It's a hat tip from one professional to another, a private in-joke. Because of this, the homage is also very hard for audiences to judge, since it's not meant for them. It also means that it really only works when both the artist and the subject of tribute have already achieved a certain level of professional standing.
Is Yukito, who is a long time self-professed Frank Miller fan, a plagiarist? Is Nick Simmons a plagiarist? A few questions need to be asked beforehand... is the amount of copying substantial relative to the entire work? Is the copying done to supplement shortcomings in the artist's technical repertoire? How easily would one recognize it as an intentional reference? Certainly, we wouldn't find universal agreement on either of these examples, although I would imagine that Yukito makes more room for argument than Nick Simmons.
Still, I wish nobody did this sort of thing at all.
# terebi-kun on 03/03/10 at 03:17
"If you're Japanese and ripping off an American legend such as Frank Miller, not only do you get away with it, if you did it well you might even be in line for a major Hollywood rub and tug by the worldwide king of the box office himself!"
I'm sorry man, but that's just being biased. In fact, comic plagiarism in Japan means, most of the time, cease of publication.
In the US you have guys like Greg Land, Rob Liefeld, even Bob Kane (who swiped from Harold Foster), etc.
All of them are criticized, but none of them have faced cease of publication. Maybe Yukito Kishiro is asking for it, I don't know... but my knowdlege on the matter reveals no double standard, but stricter standards, in Japan.
I'm sorry man, but that's just being biased. In fact, comic plagiarism in Japan means, most of the time, cease of publication.
In the US you have guys like Greg Land, Rob Liefeld, even Bob Kane (who swiped from Harold Foster), etc.
All of them are criticized, but none of them have faced cease of publication. Maybe Yukito Kishiro is asking for it, I don't know... but my knowdlege on the matter reveals no double standard, but stricter standards, in Japan.
Deffinitelly double standards.
In NS case it's newbie's plagiarism and in FM's case it's The New Master Hommaging Japanese Idol[s].
Nick Simmons is but a kid, overjoyed to have his comic out there for the breathlessly awaiting world. It's true he should've known better -- so should have FM.
In the end, who cares?
Only us, comics lovers.
The rest..? Either they don't care or younger wannabe artists get the wrong message - that it's acceptable to swipe -- only, sons of famous rock stars and celebrity cartoonists/movie directors can get away with it AND ALWAYS WILL... but will the anonymous wannabes lifting figure poses, panels or whole pages from previously published artwork by established professionals..?
# rkc on 03/03/10 at 04:10
Excellent post. Love love love it. Bet no one will make a peep about it now, just like no peeps were heard about it then. It's only bad if you're an American!
# bahamut on 03/03/10 at 06:14
That's pretty interesting. For what it's worth, in the comments in Spanish, some people claim it's an homage because Miller and Yukito are fans of each other. I dunno.
There's been several cases of copies in manga before (some are a stretch, some are clear as day), but the Simmons case is just a step beyond that because of how much is copied. There were A LOT of Incarnate comparison images that appeared over the week...and considering the fact that the series was only three issues, you have to wonder what percentage of it was copied material and what was original.
Part of the fan outrage isn't just that he copied from manga, but that he copied SO much.
In other news, I want to read Elektra Lives Again!
There's been several cases of copies in manga before (some are a stretch, some are clear as day), but the Simmons case is just a step beyond that because of how much is copied. There were A LOT of Incarnate comparison images that appeared over the week...and considering the fact that the series was only three issues, you have to wonder what percentage of it was copied material and what was original.
Part of the fan outrage isn't just that he copied from manga, but that he copied SO much.
In other news, I want to read Elektra Lives Again!
# twincast on 03/03/10 at 08:59
@Boyann: polish up your reading skills some. "FM" didn't swipe, he GOT swiped!
Anyway, I gotta agree that times, they were a different, so the comparison isn't really viable (and apologist fanboys and -girls are a sad phenomenon everywhere).
And as far as publishers go, the Big Two's nonchalance especially re: Land is extremely infuriating, but on the other hand the Japanese are IMHO way too far on the other end of the spectrum.
Anyway, I gotta agree that times, they were a different, so the comparison isn't really viable (and apologist fanboys and -girls are a sad phenomenon everywhere).
And as far as publishers go, the Big Two's nonchalance especially re: Land is extremely infuriating, but on the other hand the Japanese are IMHO way too far on the other end of the spectrum.
As an artist. Copying poses from some other art work is okay, as long as its with a very different look (just my opinion) and very very very moderate, I mean when you see a panel which is very cool especially from an artist you really look up to, wouldn't you be inspired to do the panel composition; of course, you wouldn't trace it or use the very same character or theme. Its the very same with film directors and choreographers, the shot they take in a movie, I'm sure they're inspired from another director. ummm.... am i making sense ? hehe.. sorry for babbling.
I think the reason there's an angry mob chasing Simmon would be that not only the book has so many panels that are traced from existing artwork (as I saw some of simmon’s sample panels compared to bleach’s panel which is almost exactly the same) I mean, its okay when you’re doing it for practice or doing rough sketches, but publishing them in your book, not only that there’s a lot of panels being trace but also the concept design of the characters is almost the same, which is a very, very bad move of you're a newbie to the business.
I mean there's plenty of good artist who wants their works published but the one that got piblished is kid who just traces most of the panels just because he's the son of a very famous rockstar.
I guess thats that, Maybe i'm wrong or hopefully i'm making sense. but this just what im thinking thats all.
I think the reason there's an angry mob chasing Simmon would be that not only the book has so many panels that are traced from existing artwork (as I saw some of simmon’s sample panels compared to bleach’s panel which is almost exactly the same) I mean, its okay when you’re doing it for practice or doing rough sketches, but publishing them in your book, not only that there’s a lot of panels being trace but also the concept design of the characters is almost the same, which is a very, very bad move of you're a newbie to the business.
I mean there's plenty of good artist who wants their works published but the one that got piblished is kid who just traces most of the panels just because he's the son of a very famous rockstar.
I guess thats that, Maybe i'm wrong or hopefully i'm making sense. but this just what im thinking thats all.
# MechR on 03/03/10 at 18:03
This I was aware of. However:
1) There is a vast difference in degree. Kishiro ripped a handful of panels, whereas Simmons ripped something on damn near every page of Incarnate, including dialogue and story elements on top of art.
2) Kishiro's own drawing and storytelling skills were quite good, and he has not ripped since, to my knowledge. There's little point in raking him over the coals now, after 14 years of good behavior and great art. Simmons can live Incarnate down too, with a decade of artistic toil.
1) There is a vast difference in degree. Kishiro ripped a handful of panels, whereas Simmons ripped something on damn near every page of Incarnate, including dialogue and story elements on top of art.
2) Kishiro's own drawing and storytelling skills were quite good, and he has not ripped since, to my knowledge. There's little point in raking him over the coals now, after 14 years of good behavior and great art. Simmons can live Incarnate down too, with a decade of artistic toil.
# Anna on 03/03/10 at 18:34
"If you're Japanese and ripping off an American legend such as Frank Miller, not only do you get away with it, if you did it well you might even be in line for a major Hollywood rub and tug by the worldwide king of the box office himself!"
Isn't this comment a generalization for the sake of being provocative? There are so many plagiarism scandals and controversies within the Japanese manga landscape, it's ridiculous to pick just one and then make a blanket statement based on this case alone, and implying that there is a direct connection between copying from Miller and getting a movie deal years later.
I'm all for a discussion about what is and what isn't allowed in this field, but especially when comparing cases in different nations, we have to take into account that different nations come with different laws and different moral ideas about what's allowed and what's crossing the line.
The bigger, more recent cases concern Eden no Hana, which was cancelled after it was discovered the mangaka had copied poses from Slam Dunk (which was in turn accused of having copied poses from NBA photos...), and Youka Nitta, who took a longer break from manga when she was found to have copied from various fashion photoshoots in more than 100 instances.
To say that "when the Japanese do it, they don't get in trouble but get rewarded" is simply wrong.
Isn't this comment a generalization for the sake of being provocative? There are so many plagiarism scandals and controversies within the Japanese manga landscape, it's ridiculous to pick just one and then make a blanket statement based on this case alone, and implying that there is a direct connection between copying from Miller and getting a movie deal years later.
I'm all for a discussion about what is and what isn't allowed in this field, but especially when comparing cases in different nations, we have to take into account that different nations come with different laws and different moral ideas about what's allowed and what's crossing the line.
The bigger, more recent cases concern Eden no Hana, which was cancelled after it was discovered the mangaka had copied poses from Slam Dunk (which was in turn accused of having copied poses from NBA photos...), and Youka Nitta, who took a longer break from manga when she was found to have copied from various fashion photoshoots in more than 100 instances.
To say that "when the Japanese do it, they don't get in trouble but get rewarded" is simply wrong.
To all,
Thanks for the feedback! I really think this needs to be talked about.
To those who didn't like the "when Japanese ripoff Americans" comment, I wasn't saying that Japan has no consequences for plagiarism, but people here in Japan are usually busted for copying each other. No one seems to care much about foreign comics, especially American ones.
If I'm wrong, please show me a case where a Japanese artist was caught copying a foreign one and busted and punished for it. Honestly, I'd love to know about it.
Yes, I realize that Kishiro has talent and can, unlike Simmons, actually draw. I know that not nearly as much was copied. But I question how much that matters and I've posted a follow up today. ( http://www.gottsu-iiyan.ca/gib/index.php/2010/03/03/fmpd )
I hope some of you will read it.
Thanks.
Thanks for the feedback! I really think this needs to be talked about.
To those who didn't like the "when Japanese ripoff Americans" comment, I wasn't saying that Japan has no consequences for plagiarism, but people here in Japan are usually busted for copying each other. No one seems to care much about foreign comics, especially American ones.
If I'm wrong, please show me a case where a Japanese artist was caught copying a foreign one and busted and punished for it. Honestly, I'd love to know about it.
Yes, I realize that Kishiro has talent and can, unlike Simmons, actually draw. I know that not nearly as much was copied. But I question how much that matters and I've posted a follow up today. ( http://www.gottsu-iiyan.ca/gib/index.php/2010/03/03/fmpd )
I hope some of you will read it.
Thanks.
# Alicia on 03/03/10 at 19:35
Lie. If you're a Japanese artist ripping off people outside of Japan, Japanese people will notice:
http://www30.atwiki.jp/ichi-1/pages/12.html
You need to actually, like, research things before you write your posts, you know. Having a bias to start out with, and then going out only to find evidence that supports your bias, is idiocy.
http://www30.atwiki.jp/ichi-1/pages/12.html
You need to actually, like, research things before you write your posts, you know. Having a bias to start out with, and then going out only to find evidence that supports your bias, is idiocy.
Alicia,
What exactly are you suggesting is my bias?
And what does JoJo's Bizarre Adventure being accused of copying fashion photo poses have to do my alleged bias, or Frank Miller's panels being copied almost exactly in Battle Angel? I'm talking about comics copying comics.
Can you even read the page you send me?
Btw, and FYI, JoJo was halted by the publisher in Japan for insulting Islam, NOT for copying fashion photos. Where are the consequences for copying the photos?
Please explain what the hell you are talking about before you, like, accuse me of idiocy or bias.
What exactly are you suggesting is my bias?
And what does JoJo's Bizarre Adventure being accused of copying fashion photo poses have to do my alleged bias, or Frank Miller's panels being copied almost exactly in Battle Angel? I'm talking about comics copying comics.
Can you even read the page you send me?
Btw, and FYI, JoJo was halted by the publisher in Japan for insulting Islam, NOT for copying fashion photos. Where are the consequences for copying the photos?
Please explain what the hell you are talking about before you, like, accuse me of idiocy or bias.
# Anna on 03/03/10 at 19:52
"To those who didn't like the "when Japanese ripoff Americans" comment, I wasn't saying that Japan has no consequences for plagiarism, but people here in Japan are usually busted for copying each other. No one seems to care much about foreign comics, especially American ones.
If I'm wrong, please show me a case where a Japanese artist was caught copying a foreign one and busted and punished for it. Honestly, I'd love to know about it."
I already mentioned Youka Nitta, who copied a lot of non-Japanese photography, and got in a lot of trouble for it. It wasn't that long ago, in fact, it is the most recent, biggest case that I can think of.
I have a link with examples, but your blog doesn't let me post it due to some spam filter, which is weird. But if you google her name plus plagiarism, it shouldn't take too long to find the evidence yourself.
If I'm wrong, please show me a case where a Japanese artist was caught copying a foreign one and busted and punished for it. Honestly, I'd love to know about it."
I already mentioned Youka Nitta, who copied a lot of non-Japanese photography, and got in a lot of trouble for it. It wasn't that long ago, in fact, it is the most recent, biggest case that I can think of.
I have a link with examples, but your blog doesn't let me post it due to some spam filter, which is weird. But if you google her name plus plagiarism, it shouldn't take too long to find the evidence yourself.
# Alicia on 03/03/10 at 20:00
Do you know why Japanese people are so rarely called out for copying American comics?
BECAUSE JAPANESE PEOPLE RARELY READ US COMICS AND THUS HAVE VERY LITTLE OPPORTUNITY TO COPY THEM.
Reversely, more Americans read manga. Therefore, there are blatant instances of copying, such as this one.
Logic. Learn it. It has nothing to do with bias, or Japanese people "not caring about Americans". Your bias is showing. Again.
Also, if you notice rip-offs from US comics (or other things) and want the publishers to reprimand the artists? OMG, how about YOU write the publishers, instead of waiting for Japanese people to do it FOR you? :O A novel concept, I know.
I'm done talking with you about this, but please know that I always enjoy your entries for their absolute nonsensicality, confirmation bias, and uninformed blabbering disguised as "fact".
BECAUSE JAPANESE PEOPLE RARELY READ US COMICS AND THUS HAVE VERY LITTLE OPPORTUNITY TO COPY THEM.
Reversely, more Americans read manga. Therefore, there are blatant instances of copying, such as this one.
Logic. Learn it. It has nothing to do with bias, or Japanese people "not caring about Americans". Your bias is showing. Again.
Also, if you notice rip-offs from US comics (or other things) and want the publishers to reprimand the artists? OMG, how about YOU write the publishers, instead of waiting for Japanese people to do it FOR you? :O A novel concept, I know.
I'm done talking with you about this, but please know that I always enjoy your entries for their absolute nonsensicality, confirmation bias, and uninformed blabbering disguised as "fact".
Anna,
Sorry about the filters. It must be something in the default set when I upgraded my blog software. I'll try to take those off.
But I will google that in case you don't come back and try to repost them.
From what I've seen most people here who get busted, get busted for copying other domestic artists. I can understand people in Japan discovering copies of fashion photos, though, because Japan is all over the fashion world. Few know or care about foreign comics, though.
I'm talking about fans EVERYWHERE, not just Japanese fans. Honestly, I don't expect Japan to know who Frank Miller is and I'm actually happy that Kishiro is a fan.
In North America, however, Frank Miller is legendary and Battel Angel is high profile. This ig going to made into a major movie and no mention of Miller's name on other side of the pacific. Why? That's what I want to know. I'm a Frank Miller fan and only doing exactly what the Bleach fans did for Bleach.
Sorry about the filters. It must be something in the default set when I upgraded my blog software. I'll try to take those off.
But I will google that in case you don't come back and try to repost them.
From what I've seen most people here who get busted, get busted for copying other domestic artists. I can understand people in Japan discovering copies of fashion photos, though, because Japan is all over the fashion world. Few know or care about foreign comics, though.
I'm talking about fans EVERYWHERE, not just Japanese fans. Honestly, I don't expect Japan to know who Frank Miller is and I'm actually happy that Kishiro is a fan.
In North America, however, Frank Miller is legendary and Battel Angel is high profile. This ig going to made into a major movie and no mention of Miller's name on other side of the pacific. Why? That's what I want to know. I'm a Frank Miller fan and only doing exactly what the Bleach fans did for Bleach.
Alicia,
"my bias is showing again"?
What are you talking about!?
For the record, where did I say "Japanese don't care about Americans"? I'm talking about comics, and most Japanese do not care about American comics. It's called reading comprehension. Learn it!
"BECAUSE JAPANESE PEOPLE RARELY READ US COMICS AND THUS HAVE VERY LITTLE OPPORTUNITY TO COPY THEM.""
Exaclty what I said - they don't read them because they don't care about them. Are you saying that "not having an opportunity to copy them" makes it okay when it does happen?
Who or what do you think you are standing up for here? Japan?
If you want to throw insults then go ahead, but I'm going to stop trading them right here.
If you want to talk, then I'll be happy to talk.
It's up to you.
"my bias is showing again"?
What are you talking about!?
For the record, where did I say "Japanese don't care about Americans"? I'm talking about comics, and most Japanese do not care about American comics. It's called reading comprehension. Learn it!
"BECAUSE JAPANESE PEOPLE RARELY READ US COMICS AND THUS HAVE VERY LITTLE OPPORTUNITY TO COPY THEM.""
Exaclty what I said - they don't read them because they don't care about them. Are you saying that "not having an opportunity to copy them" makes it okay when it does happen?
Who or what do you think you are standing up for here? Japan?
If you want to throw insults then go ahead, but I'm going to stop trading them right here.
If you want to talk, then I'll be happy to talk.
It's up to you.
# Anna on 03/03/10 at 21:04
"From what I've seen most people here who get busted, get busted for copying other domestic artists."
I'm not sure. From the looks of it, the Simmons case was pretty big in scope. Even his drawing style was similar to Kubo Tite's, which is adding a whole new layer to the issue. Most of the smaller plagiarism cases are about poses, panelling and various other smaller instances. Can you name a similarly huge instance of plagiarism that happened between two Japanese mangaka? I'm trying to think of something, but there's really nothing that comes to mind in recent years.
Other than that, I think Alicia has a point in many ways: maybe we hear less often about a Japanese artist ripping off an American artist because fewer Japanese artists know American comics, therefore cannot rip them off. AND also: even if a mangaka rips off an American artist, if the Japanese readership doesn't know this American artist, they will not recognize the instance of plagiarism, and it will go unnoticed. But if they notice, they don't shrug this off and move on, thinking "Who cares, it's an American". They post about it just as much.
A lot of manga readers don't read non-Japanese comics (not just American, but Franco-Belgian, too... and who knows what else) and a lot of comic fans don't read manga. A lot of readers limit themselves like that. Of course manga fans would primarly know about manga, and recognize plagiarism in related cases (it was a Bleach message board that spotted Simmons' plagiarism), and you, as a fan of Frank Miller, would recognize plagiarism related to an obscure work of his.
But you kind of seem to expect everybody to react to your post by being as outraged at Kishiro as they are at Simmons, but from the information you provide, it doesn't seem like what Kishiro did really compares to Simmons' deed, and Simon Jones suggests that this is old news anyway, and has been discussed in whichever circles were appropriate.
From your posts, it looks like we're talking about just one panel with traced art, so if there is more, you should mention it and present your case better... right now, your demand that Miller be credited for the maybe-upcoming movie version does look like an overreaction, and I have to admit that there are many moments in your posts (and in the comments) that make me uncomfortable because it is as if you try hard to interprete this all as anti-Americanism, and lose your objectivity through this.
BTW, I am sure "Japan" knows who Frank Miller is because of the Sin City movie. He's probably one of the few comic artists who have some recognition outside of the comic scene. But would James Cameron want his name on his movie, after The Spirit? ;)
I'm not sure. From the looks of it, the Simmons case was pretty big in scope. Even his drawing style was similar to Kubo Tite's, which is adding a whole new layer to the issue. Most of the smaller plagiarism cases are about poses, panelling and various other smaller instances. Can you name a similarly huge instance of plagiarism that happened between two Japanese mangaka? I'm trying to think of something, but there's really nothing that comes to mind in recent years.
Other than that, I think Alicia has a point in many ways: maybe we hear less often about a Japanese artist ripping off an American artist because fewer Japanese artists know American comics, therefore cannot rip them off. AND also: even if a mangaka rips off an American artist, if the Japanese readership doesn't know this American artist, they will not recognize the instance of plagiarism, and it will go unnoticed. But if they notice, they don't shrug this off and move on, thinking "Who cares, it's an American". They post about it just as much.
A lot of manga readers don't read non-Japanese comics (not just American, but Franco-Belgian, too... and who knows what else) and a lot of comic fans don't read manga. A lot of readers limit themselves like that. Of course manga fans would primarly know about manga, and recognize plagiarism in related cases (it was a Bleach message board that spotted Simmons' plagiarism), and you, as a fan of Frank Miller, would recognize plagiarism related to an obscure work of his.
But you kind of seem to expect everybody to react to your post by being as outraged at Kishiro as they are at Simmons, but from the information you provide, it doesn't seem like what Kishiro did really compares to Simmons' deed, and Simon Jones suggests that this is old news anyway, and has been discussed in whichever circles were appropriate.
From your posts, it looks like we're talking about just one panel with traced art, so if there is more, you should mention it and present your case better... right now, your demand that Miller be credited for the maybe-upcoming movie version does look like an overreaction, and I have to admit that there are many moments in your posts (and in the comments) that make me uncomfortable because it is as if you try hard to interprete this all as anti-Americanism, and lose your objectivity through this.
BTW, I am sure "Japan" knows who Frank Miller is because of the Sin City movie. He's probably one of the few comic artists who have some recognition outside of the comic scene. But would James Cameron want his name on his movie, after The Spirit? ;)
Anna,
Thanks for you comments. I really do appreciate it.
However, there is one point I'd like to make clear - when I talk about Bleach fans asking for the head of Nick Simmons, and then I ask "where are the Frank Miller fans?" I am talking about the more or less the SAME fans. i.e. I am not talking about Japanese fans.
If I'm sounding like I'm impying anti-Americanism - first of all there is a lot of it here to go hand in hand with what I also think is "over Americanism" in this country - but really I am maybe accusing non-Japanese fans of Japanese comics of a double standard, not Japan or Japanese people.
You write that "this is old news anyway, and has been discussed in whichever circles were appropriate.
" Well, then I wish someone would show me where this was discussed and put to rest please.
I write in my follow up that maybe I am making a big deal about this, but I'd like to see where people even know about it, forget about putting any controversy to rest. I also write that I know it's not the same as Nick Simmons, but that I would like to see people at least get the info out there and ask questions. If, after that, it's been looked into and turns out to be something most people don't think it's a big deal, then that's fine. No problem.
But please show me where that has happened.
That fact that it is old news is not a defense., unless it's old news that everyone knows but doesn't care about. Does everyone know? For the reccord, I was one of the people who bitched about Disney's Tezuka ripoff with the Lion King. It turns out only a vocal minority of Japanese epople cared to really even make a big deal about it, so I dropped it too. But I still don't think that is old or irrelavent. However I do know that Tezuka productions probably kept quiet because Tezuka loved Disney and would likely be more heart broken than angry.
I, on the other hand, was angry, and you are right that that tone hurts objectivity.
I'm sorry If I come across as anti-Japanese to you. I know I can write in a combative way sometimes (yes, it's sometimes for effect, but sometimes becasue I'm actually pissed off) but believe me that is a loooong way from the truth.
I live in Japan, speak the language fluently, and I love this counrty. But that doesn't mean I will let them off the hook for arrogance and xenophobia they too often exhibit, just like I would not put up with a foreigner coming here and ripping on Japan for no reason. I've been called a "sympathizer" more often than anything else.
I am also quick to praise the good things and people here.
Maybe that doesn't show up enough on my blog, though...?
That's something I should probably think about.
If I've left you with the impression that I'm anti-Japanese, it was not only unintended, but I hope you believe me when I say it is not at all true.
I hope that Japan comes to know who Frank Miller, but still precious few really do.
However, you got me on The Spirit! I have no comeback for that at all! Nice shot! LOL
Thanks for you comments. I really do appreciate it.
However, there is one point I'd like to make clear - when I talk about Bleach fans asking for the head of Nick Simmons, and then I ask "where are the Frank Miller fans?" I am talking about the more or less the SAME fans. i.e. I am not talking about Japanese fans.
If I'm sounding like I'm impying anti-Americanism - first of all there is a lot of it here to go hand in hand with what I also think is "over Americanism" in this country - but really I am maybe accusing non-Japanese fans of Japanese comics of a double standard, not Japan or Japanese people.
You write that "this is old news anyway, and has been discussed in whichever circles were appropriate.
" Well, then I wish someone would show me where this was discussed and put to rest please.
I write in my follow up that maybe I am making a big deal about this, but I'd like to see where people even know about it, forget about putting any controversy to rest. I also write that I know it's not the same as Nick Simmons, but that I would like to see people at least get the info out there and ask questions. If, after that, it's been looked into and turns out to be something most people don't think it's a big deal, then that's fine. No problem.
But please show me where that has happened.
That fact that it is old news is not a defense., unless it's old news that everyone knows but doesn't care about. Does everyone know? For the reccord, I was one of the people who bitched about Disney's Tezuka ripoff with the Lion King. It turns out only a vocal minority of Japanese epople cared to really even make a big deal about it, so I dropped it too. But I still don't think that is old or irrelavent. However I do know that Tezuka productions probably kept quiet because Tezuka loved Disney and would likely be more heart broken than angry.
I, on the other hand, was angry, and you are right that that tone hurts objectivity.
I'm sorry If I come across as anti-Japanese to you. I know I can write in a combative way sometimes (yes, it's sometimes for effect, but sometimes becasue I'm actually pissed off) but believe me that is a loooong way from the truth.
I live in Japan, speak the language fluently, and I love this counrty. But that doesn't mean I will let them off the hook for arrogance and xenophobia they too often exhibit, just like I would not put up with a foreigner coming here and ripping on Japan for no reason. I've been called a "sympathizer" more often than anything else.
I am also quick to praise the good things and people here.
Maybe that doesn't show up enough on my blog, though...?
That's something I should probably think about.
If I've left you with the impression that I'm anti-Japanese, it was not only unintended, but I hope you believe me when I say it is not at all true.
I hope that Japan comes to know who Frank Miller, but still precious few really do.
However, you got me on The Spirit! I have no comeback for that at all! Nice shot! LOL
# Xenos on 03/03/10 at 23:05
Well considering this was one panel in a whole original series and Alita's author is a professed fan of Frank Miller? No, I think it's very different from a first time author covering up a whole book of swipes and calling it all his own work. There are many degrees of difference between one panel by an established author and a book full of copied designs and panels in a kids first book.
The Alita swipe certainly is a whole other animal. Kishiro's said he's a fan of Miller and this was two panels of Alita fighting Hand ninjas. Meanwhile simmons has a whole book of art and design and maybe even character swipes and never mentions Bleach. Plus it was just cool to see Alita fight the Hand as a Miller fan. One Miller nerd nod amongst in one later volume in a whole original book series is a whole other animal from what Simmons did in his first comic.
Let's put it in music terms. If someone quotes a line in their seventeenth album is that not different than someone sampling almost whole songs and lyrics in their first?
Really, if you want to look for double standards, check out numerous Japanese cases where manga creators have been caught swiping as much as Simmons and have been taken to task to it. No, there is no double standards.
The Alita swipe certainly is a whole other animal. Kishiro's said he's a fan of Miller and this was two panels of Alita fighting Hand ninjas. Meanwhile simmons has a whole book of art and design and maybe even character swipes and never mentions Bleach. Plus it was just cool to see Alita fight the Hand as a Miller fan. One Miller nerd nod amongst in one later volume in a whole original book series is a whole other animal from what Simmons did in his first comic.
Let's put it in music terms. If someone quotes a line in their seventeenth album is that not different than someone sampling almost whole songs and lyrics in their first?
Really, if you want to look for double standards, check out numerous Japanese cases where manga creators have been caught swiping as much as Simmons and have been taken to task to it. No, there is no double standards.
# Smodfan on 03/04/10 at 00:45
"Please show me a case where a Japanese artist was caught copying a foreign one and busted and punished for it. Honestly, I'd love to know about it."
To the best my knowledge Japan isn't really know for importing US comics the same way the US imports and licenses Japanese manga. So, (1) it would be less likely for Japanese mangaka to plagiarize their work off of US comics, unless they speak and understand english and (2) it would be less likely that the mangaka would be caught because Japanese manga readers wouldn't have the reference material to find an act of "plagiarism" (since that seems to be the word everyone is using in the Simmons story). Also, remember while manga is imported into the US not every manga created gets imorted, so US manga readers and US comic readers are less likely to stumble upon "plagiarism". Also, it seems to me IMO that most US comic readers don't read manga and most US manga readers don't read US comics (Always seems like two different worlds of geeks with only some who read both Manga and US comics). Maybe the reason manga fans picked up Simmons book in the first place was because of the obvious manga inspired art one would see at first glace and with further reading started to see parallels to Bleach, Hellsing, Naruto, etc. (just my theory I could easily be wrong there). Also, in 1999 (When you said the Frank Miller getting "Plagiarized" story broke) the internet was most definitely a different place, No facebook, No twitter, No MySpace, No deviantART, Google was in infancy, and most importantly the internet wasn't as mush as a platform as it is today.
I don't want to come off as I'm saying that Frank Miller getting "plagiarized" is old news and should be forgotten or who cares about Frank Millers. All I'm saying is that comparing Frank Miller getting plagiarized by a mangaka to Nick Simmons plagiarizing various manga is like comparing apples and oranges. Also, that looking at these two cases and coming to the conclusion of a double standard is just inaccurate.
BTW I have never read Bleach, Incarnate, Elektra Lives Again, or Battle Angel Alita and am very far away from ever being considered an expect of the manga world or comic book world and I hope I didn't come off as I was trying to seem to be one.
To the best my knowledge Japan isn't really know for importing US comics the same way the US imports and licenses Japanese manga. So, (1) it would be less likely for Japanese mangaka to plagiarize their work off of US comics, unless they speak and understand english and (2) it would be less likely that the mangaka would be caught because Japanese manga readers wouldn't have the reference material to find an act of "plagiarism" (since that seems to be the word everyone is using in the Simmons story). Also, remember while manga is imported into the US not every manga created gets imorted, so US manga readers and US comic readers are less likely to stumble upon "plagiarism". Also, it seems to me IMO that most US comic readers don't read manga and most US manga readers don't read US comics (Always seems like two different worlds of geeks with only some who read both Manga and US comics). Maybe the reason manga fans picked up Simmons book in the first place was because of the obvious manga inspired art one would see at first glace and with further reading started to see parallels to Bleach, Hellsing, Naruto, etc. (just my theory I could easily be wrong there). Also, in 1999 (When you said the Frank Miller getting "Plagiarized" story broke) the internet was most definitely a different place, No facebook, No twitter, No MySpace, No deviantART, Google was in infancy, and most importantly the internet wasn't as mush as a platform as it is today.
I don't want to come off as I'm saying that Frank Miller getting "plagiarized" is old news and should be forgotten or who cares about Frank Millers. All I'm saying is that comparing Frank Miller getting plagiarized by a mangaka to Nick Simmons plagiarizing various manga is like comparing apples and oranges. Also, that looking at these two cases and coming to the conclusion of a double standard is just inaccurate.
BTW I have never read Bleach, Incarnate, Elektra Lives Again, or Battle Angel Alita and am very far away from ever being considered an expect of the manga world or comic book world and I hope I didn't come off as I was trying to seem to be one.
# Romanticide on 03/05/10 at 15:00
I think there is a difference. Kishiro took one or two panels and redrawn them on his style with his characters, and admited he is fan of Frank of Miller. Simmons took a lightbox(or it's photoshop equivalent) and traced directly each and every panel just changing some minor things, a great percentage of Simmons "work" has been traced, same character designs, not just the poses.
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